轻松英语口语会话 着手改变钱的故事(mp3+lrc字幕)
日期:2009-08-20
[00:00.00]When money has a tangible value,a lot of emotional things hitchhike on its coattails.
[00:03.04]金钱具有实实在在的价值，因此很多有关情感的东西和它搭上了关系。
[00:06.08]Money often functions as the "currency of caring."
[00:08.23]金钱往往起着“爱心货币”的作用。
[00:10.37]More and more professionals_psychotherapists,counselors,social workers and others_have begun to address in their work the hidden ways that money works for,and against,many people.
[00:17.23]越来越多的专家（包括精神治疗医师、心理顾问、社会工作者等等）。已开始在其著作中论述金钱以其急秘的方式对很多人所起的作用—好的作用和坏的作用。
[00:24.08]In the forefront of this movement is Dr.Krueger.
[00:25.65]大卫医生是这一运动的先驱。
[00:27.22]The author of "Emotional Business"and "Success and Fear of Success in Women,"
[00:30.51]作为《情感交易》和《妇女对成功的认识》的作者，
[00:33.80]Dr.Krueger has a keen and heartfelt understanding of the symbolic value of money,
[00:36.45]他对金钱的象征性价值，有着敏感的，衷心的理解力。
[00:39.10]the money patterns and symptoms that can arise from our early roots,
[00:41.08]对处理钱财的方式和我们根深蒂固的毛病，
[00:43.06]and how we can take steps to change our"story"so that we may find our authentic selves.
[00:46.17]对我们该如何采取措施改变生活方式以找到真实的自我，都有着深刻的理解。
[00:49.28]Here is what he had to say in a recent talk with Institute Founder and Executive Director Karen McCall.
[00:52.56]以下是最近他和协会创建者及执行董事Karen McCall的一次谈话。
[00:55.84]Karen McCall:In your book"Emotional Business,"you talk about money in terms of what it represents for many people.
[00:59.89]在您的《情感交易》一书中，您谈到货币对于大多数人而言代表什么。
[01:03.94]Let's talk about the symbolic value of money_about what money does and doesn't buy.
[01:07.91]现在我们就来谈谈货币象征意义上的价值钱买得到什么，买不到什么。
[01:11.89]David Krueger:Well,first of all you have to understand that money is a tremendous force,
[01:14.16]好的，首先你得明白，钱的力量是巨大的，
[01:16.43]one that in terms of its tangible value determines where we live ,
[01:18.66]就其实实在在的价值而言，它可以决定我们住在哪儿，
[01:20.89]how we live,whether we can put food on the table,and so on.
[01:22.93]我们如何生活，我们的餐桌上是否有东西可吃，诸如此类。
[01:24.96]But when you look closely,you see that there are all kinds of emotional things that hitchhike on it as well.
[01:28.51]不过如果你仔细探究，你会发现还有种种情感方面的问题也与之相关。
[01:32.05]KM:Say a little more about that.
[01:33.60]您能就这个问题详细谈谈吗？
[01:35.15]DK:Money,for many people,is treated unconsciously as a "currency of caring."
[01:38.26]很多人把钱当作一种“有爱心的货币”而自己浑然不觉。
[01:41.38]So a lot of things are attributed to money-love,power,fame.
[01:44.42]很多东西，比如爱情、权利、声名、都被认为源于金钱。
[01:47.46]This is confusing what money is with what it can do.
[01:49.42]就其本身的作用而言，金钱到底是什么？这个令人困惑的问题。
[01:51.38]And when our conscious intentions are at odds with our unconscious motivations,we'll never feel quite"right"inside.
[01:55.31]当我们有意识的目的和我们无意识的动机不一致时，我们的内心就会觉得不对劲。
[01:59.23]The more money symbolizes our unfulfilled needs and desires,the less it satisfies us.
[02:02.80]越是用金钱来标志我们未被满足的需要与欲望，金钱就越不能满足我们。
[02:06.36]KM:That raises an interesting idea,because what you've just described is often a foundation for addictions of various kinds.
[02:11.06]你刚才所说的通常是对很多东西上瘾的基础，这让我想到了一个有趣的问题，
[02:15.76]Can one become addicted to money?
[02:17.32]就是人们会对金钱上瘾吗？
[02:18.89]DK:Absolutely.When money serves as a proxy,when it serves as a symbol for what one really wants,there will never be enough.
[02:23.17]绝对可能。当金钱成为一种替代品，成为一个人真正所需的一种象征，那就再多也不够了。
[02:27.46]An addiction is a promise that's never kept_hope given life by proxy.
[02:30.25]任何一种上瘾都是一个永远不会遵守的诺言。生活的希望就在于那个替代品。
[02:33.04]It's very common for someone to say"I won't have any problems if I can just make a million dollars,
[02:35.99]常常有人说，“只要我能赚一百万，我的生活就不会有任何问题了，
[02:38.94]or five million dollars,and have a house in a great neighborhood.
[02:41.06]或者是五百万，并在富人区有栋房子。
[02:43.19]But it's never enough;you can lose enough,you can't make enough.
[02:45.38]其实那是远远不够的，你会失去很多，而你挣钱却是永不嫌多的。
[02:47.58]When you make money the proxy of what you need,you will never be satisfied.
[02:50.19]如果你把金钱当作你所需的一切的替代品，你就永不会满足。
[02:52.80]KM:What are the components of an addiction?
[02:54.49]要具备哪些必要条件才会上瘾呢？
[02:56.18]DK:Anything that you can be addicted to has three components.
[02:58.22]你对能上瘾的任何东西都包含三个主要因素。
[03:00.25]One is the historical component that often arises out of our family of origin and our earliest experiences of being,or not being,cared for.
[03:04.86]首要的是历史因素，它可能源于我们出生的家庭，源于我们早年被关心（或者不被关心）的经历。
[03:09.47]Out of their histories,people come to create their own personal stories,with specific meanings assigned to the object of their addiction.
[03:13.48]在自身历史外，人们往往以自己的经历来书写个人的故事，其特定的意义被转化到他们上瘾的对象上。
[03:17.50]The second component is the symbolic equation that we assign to the money or alcohol or other"drug."
[03:20.68]其二是我们将金钱，酒精或其它毒品在象征意义上视为等同。
[03:23.87]For example,we might equate money with being loved,or with being either powerful or impotent.
[03:27.11]例如，我们会把金钱与被爱，与强大或是无能联系在一起。
[03:30.35]And the third component is that whatever the object of addiction is_whether it's money,food,drugs,sex or whatever,
[03:34.67]其三，不管上瘾的对象是什么，不论是金钱，食物，毒品，性还是别的什么，
[03:38.99]the object has an immediate capacity to regulate both physiological and psychological experiences,both tension states and feelings.
[03:43.70]它都能立刻对你的生理和心理体验，对你的紧张状态和感觉起着调节作用。
[03:48.42]And anything that is used addictively comes to further enhance the symbolism of the proxy,
[03:51.21]所有的上瘾都强化替代物的象征作用，
[03:54.00]crowding out one's personal story and taking on a life of its own.
[03:56.68]而对个人经历和对自己承担的生活责任漠不关心。
[03:59.36]KM:You've said that when it comes to addictions,you like to distinguish between"pattern"and"symptom".
[04:02.78]您说在讲到上瘾的时候，行为方式和症状是有所不同的，
[04:06.20]Let's talk more about that.
[04:07.57]我们谈谈这个好吗？
[04:08.94]DK:A symptom is a particular kind of behavior or enactment_compulsive gambling,compulsive shopping,those kinds of things.
[04:12.74]症状是一种特定的行为方式或规定，象强迫性的赌博和购物等类似的事情。
[04:16.54]Patterns have a broader configuration.
[04:17.85]行为方式的范围要广得多。
[04:19.16]A pattern is not a single,symptomatic act,but a broader set of behaviors,like having someone rescue you from a financial disaster.
[04:23.81]它不是一种独立的，表现症状的行为，而是一系列范围更广泛的行为，比如在经济状况不妙时让人救助。
[04:28.45]It's using money or the means for obtaining money as a kind of engagement as a way of connecting with people.
[04:31.85]它是以花钱的方式或是赚钱的方式作为一种承诺或保证，一种与别人联系的方式。
[04:35.26]For example,parents or a loved one or spouse would rescue from financial difficulties at the very time when you feel estranged or disconnected emotionally.
[04:40.66]例如，在你孤立无助的时候，你的父母、爱人或配偶会帮你从经济因境中解脱出来。
[04:46.06]KM:How difficult is it to change these patterns?
[04:48.31]要改变行为方式有多难呢？
[04:50.56]DK:Patterns can have a beginning,middle and end within a matter of minutes or hours,such as compulsive shopping or spending.
[04:54.14]有些行为方式可以在几分钟或者几个小时内经历从开始到结束的全过程，比如强迫性购物或消费。
[04:57.72]But there are also patterns,such as certain difficulties in intimacy in a relationship,that may take 10 or 20 years to unfold,
[05:01.57]而有些行为方式，比如与人建立一种亲密的关系，却要经过一二十年才能表现出来。
[05:05.42]and recovery from these patterns can be tougher than to look at the rapidly recurring patterns,
[05:07.94]要摆脱这样的行为方式，就比摆脱那些快速循环的行为方式困难多了，
[05:10.46]because by the time one has gone through it once or twice,they're well beyond middle age.
[05:13.36]因为当一个人经历这种行为一两次之后，往往都到中年了。
[05:16.26]But the greater the understanding of the motivations that go into it,
[05:18.15]一个人越是理解了这其中的动机，
[05:20.04]the greater possibility one has to really recognize that they themselves are creating the patterns as part of their stories,
[05:23.64]就越能真正认识到，他们已经形成了这样的行为方式并将其当作他们生活的一部分，
[05:27.24]and that with understanding,one may be able to create a very different story.
[05:29.62]而一旦理解了这些，就可以重新开始一种截然不同的生活体验。
[05:31.99]KM:You've said that the more the story of the symbol_in this case,money_comes to have a central position in one's life,
[05:36.28]你说标志物（这里指金钱）的地位越是重要，
[05:40.56]the more it has the potential to crowd out other very real and necessary things.
[05:43.60]这一标志物就越会将其他真实而重要的东西从生活中挤出去。
[05:46.64]For some people this takes the form of underearning.
[05:48.79]对有些人来说，这表现为收入低下。
[05:50.93]How would you define under-earning?
[05:52.33]你如何定义收入低下呢？
[05:53.74]DK:I see under_earning not simply as the inability to acquire money or to work to one's full potential,
[05:56.81]我认为收入低下不是简单的无力获取金钱，或无法发挥个人潜能赚钱，
[05:59.89]or,in the case of various kinds of independent professionals,the inability to set or collect fees.
[06:02.97]或是对于那些自由职业者而言收不到帐，
[06:06.05]It is those things,but it is also an internal issue.
[06:08.37]它表现为这些现象，但它同时也是一个人内在的问题。
[06:10.69]In one's own sense of self,ambition is one pole and ideal is another.
[06:14.15]在一个人的自我意识中，抱负是一回事，理想是另一回事。
[06:17.60]If..if we have formed an internal ideal that is attainable,
[06:19.46]如果我们心中有了一个可以达到的理想，
[06:21.31]we will most likely be fairly successful at working and earning at an appropriate level.
[06:24.50]我们的工作就会相当成功，收入也能达到相应的水平。
[06:27.68]KM:What you're really talking about is self_esteem,isn't it?
[06:30.20]你所说的其实是自尊，对吗？
[06:32.72]DK:Yes,and the only place that I know of that self_esteem comes from is from having an ideal that's attainable,
[06:35.80]对。我认为自尊只能源于拥有一个可以达到的理想，
[06:38.88]and achieving that ideal or those goals.
[06:40.25]并努力去实现它的过程。
[06:41.62]Now,what happens when the ideal is coupled with what someone else wants,or with an external goal?
[06:44.44]当你的理想和别人的一样时，或者与一个外在的目标一致时，又会如何呢？
[06:47.27]External affirmation makes one very vulnerable to things that would be one very vulnerable to things that would be emblems of worth_money,possessions,and other socially acceptable stand_ins for self-worth.
[06:52.78]外界的认可使一个人在金钱，财富和其他能被社会认可的自我价值面前变得容易受到伤害。
[06:58.28]But nothing is ever going to be enough.
[06:59.51]不过没有什么东西会有个够的。
[07:00.73]Nothing is going to be good enough unless you have a sense of "good enough"inside,
[07:02.93]没有什么东西会足够好，除非你的内心有一种“足够好”的感觉，
[07:05.12]which in turn means feeling a kind of affirmation of one's own worth internally.
[07:07.48]这样反过来你会从心底里感受到对自我价值的肯定。
[00:03.04]金钱具有实实在在的价值，因此很多有关情感的东西和它搭上了关系。
[00:06.08]Money often functions as the "currency of caring."
[00:08.23]金钱往往起着“爱心货币”的作用。
[00:10.37]More and more professionals_psychotherapists,counselors,social workers and others_have begun to address in their work the hidden ways that money works for,and against,many people.
[00:17.23]越来越多的专家（包括精神治疗医师、心理顾问、社会工作者等等）。已开始在其著作中论述金钱以其急秘的方式对很多人所起的作用—好的作用和坏的作用。
[00:24.08]In the forefront of this movement is Dr.Krueger.
[00:25.65]大卫医生是这一运动的先驱。
[00:27.22]The author of "Emotional Business"and "Success and Fear of Success in Women,"
[00:30.51]作为《情感交易》和《妇女对成功的认识》的作者，
[00:33.80]Dr.Krueger has a keen and heartfelt understanding of the symbolic value of money,
[00:36.45]他对金钱的象征性价值，有着敏感的，衷心的理解力。
[00:39.10]the money patterns and symptoms that can arise from our early roots,
[00:41.08]对处理钱财的方式和我们根深蒂固的毛病，
[00:43.06]and how we can take steps to change our"story"so that we may find our authentic selves.
[00:46.17]对我们该如何采取措施改变生活方式以找到真实的自我，都有着深刻的理解。
[00:49.28]Here is what he had to say in a recent talk with Institute Founder and Executive Director Karen McCall.
[00:52.56]以下是最近他和协会创建者及执行董事Karen McCall的一次谈话。
[00:55.84]Karen McCall:In your book"Emotional Business,"you talk about money in terms of what it represents for many people.
[00:59.89]在您的《情感交易》一书中，您谈到货币对于大多数人而言代表什么。
[01:03.94]Let's talk about the symbolic value of money_about what money does and doesn't buy.
[01:07.91]现在我们就来谈谈货币象征意义上的价值钱买得到什么，买不到什么。
[01:11.89]David Krueger:Well,first of all you have to understand that money is a tremendous force,
[01:14.16]好的，首先你得明白，钱的力量是巨大的，
[01:16.43]one that in terms of its tangible value determines where we live ,
[01:18.66]就其实实在在的价值而言，它可以决定我们住在哪儿，
[01:20.89]how we live,whether we can put food on the table,and so on.
[01:22.93]我们如何生活，我们的餐桌上是否有东西可吃，诸如此类。
[01:24.96]But when you look closely,you see that there are all kinds of emotional things that hitchhike on it as well.
[01:28.51]不过如果你仔细探究，你会发现还有种种情感方面的问题也与之相关。
[01:32.05]KM:Say a little more about that.
[01:33.60]您能就这个问题详细谈谈吗？
[01:35.15]DK:Money,for many people,is treated unconsciously as a "currency of caring."
[01:38.26]很多人把钱当作一种“有爱心的货币”而自己浑然不觉。
[01:41.38]So a lot of things are attributed to money-love,power,fame.
[01:44.42]很多东西，比如爱情、权利、声名、都被认为源于金钱。
[01:47.46]This is confusing what money is with what it can do.
[01:49.42]就其本身的作用而言，金钱到底是什么？这个令人困惑的问题。
[01:51.38]And when our conscious intentions are at odds with our unconscious motivations,we'll never feel quite"right"inside.
[01:55.31]当我们有意识的目的和我们无意识的动机不一致时，我们的内心就会觉得不对劲。
[01:59.23]The more money symbolizes our unfulfilled needs and desires,the less it satisfies us.
[02:02.80]越是用金钱来标志我们未被满足的需要与欲望，金钱就越不能满足我们。
[02:06.36]KM:That raises an interesting idea,because what you've just described is often a foundation for addictions of various kinds.
[02:11.06]你刚才所说的通常是对很多东西上瘾的基础，这让我想到了一个有趣的问题，
[02:15.76]Can one become addicted to money?
[02:17.32]就是人们会对金钱上瘾吗？
[02:18.89]DK:Absolutely.When money serves as a proxy,when it serves as a symbol for what one really wants,there will never be enough.
[02:23.17]绝对可能。当金钱成为一种替代品，成为一个人真正所需的一种象征，那就再多也不够了。
[02:27.46]An addiction is a promise that's never kept_hope given life by proxy.
[02:30.25]任何一种上瘾都是一个永远不会遵守的诺言。生活的希望就在于那个替代品。
[02:33.04]It's very common for someone to say"I won't have any problems if I can just make a million dollars,
[02:35.99]常常有人说，“只要我能赚一百万，我的生活就不会有任何问题了，
[02:38.94]or five million dollars,and have a house in a great neighborhood.
[02:41.06]或者是五百万，并在富人区有栋房子。
[02:43.19]But it's never enough;you can lose enough,you can't make enough.
[02:45.38]其实那是远远不够的，你会失去很多，而你挣钱却是永不嫌多的。
[02:47.58]When you make money the proxy of what you need,you will never be satisfied.
[02:50.19]如果你把金钱当作你所需的一切的替代品，你就永不会满足。
[02:52.80]KM:What are the components of an addiction?
[02:54.49]要具备哪些必要条件才会上瘾呢？
[02:56.18]DK:Anything that you can be addicted to has three components.
[02:58.22]你对能上瘾的任何东西都包含三个主要因素。
[03:00.25]One is the historical component that often arises out of our family of origin and our earliest experiences of being,or not being,cared for.
[03:04.86]首要的是历史因素，它可能源于我们出生的家庭，源于我们早年被关心（或者不被关心）的经历。
[03:09.47]Out of their histories,people come to create their own personal stories,with specific meanings assigned to the object of their addiction.
[03:13.48]在自身历史外，人们往往以自己的经历来书写个人的故事，其特定的意义被转化到他们上瘾的对象上。
[03:17.50]The second component is the symbolic equation that we assign to the money or alcohol or other"drug."
[03:20.68]其二是我们将金钱，酒精或其它毒品在象征意义上视为等同。
[03:23.87]For example,we might equate money with being loved,or with being either powerful or impotent.
[03:27.11]例如，我们会把金钱与被爱，与强大或是无能联系在一起。
[03:30.35]And the third component is that whatever the object of addiction is_whether it's money,food,drugs,sex or whatever,
[03:34.67]其三，不管上瘾的对象是什么，不论是金钱，食物，毒品，性还是别的什么，
[03:38.99]the object has an immediate capacity to regulate both physiological and psychological experiences,both tension states and feelings.
[03:43.70]它都能立刻对你的生理和心理体验，对你的紧张状态和感觉起着调节作用。
[03:48.42]And anything that is used addictively comes to further enhance the symbolism of the proxy,
[03:51.21]所有的上瘾都强化替代物的象征作用，
[03:54.00]crowding out one's personal story and taking on a life of its own.
[03:56.68]而对个人经历和对自己承担的生活责任漠不关心。
[03:59.36]KM:You've said that when it comes to addictions,you like to distinguish between"pattern"and"symptom".
[04:02.78]您说在讲到上瘾的时候，行为方式和症状是有所不同的，
[04:06.20]Let's talk more about that.
[04:07.57]我们谈谈这个好吗？
[04:08.94]DK:A symptom is a particular kind of behavior or enactment_compulsive gambling,compulsive shopping,those kinds of things.
[04:12.74]症状是一种特定的行为方式或规定，象强迫性的赌博和购物等类似的事情。
[04:16.54]Patterns have a broader configuration.
[04:17.85]行为方式的范围要广得多。
[04:19.16]A pattern is not a single,symptomatic act,but a broader set of behaviors,like having someone rescue you from a financial disaster.
[04:23.81]它不是一种独立的，表现症状的行为，而是一系列范围更广泛的行为，比如在经济状况不妙时让人救助。
[04:28.45]It's using money or the means for obtaining money as a kind of engagement as a way of connecting with people.
[04:31.85]它是以花钱的方式或是赚钱的方式作为一种承诺或保证，一种与别人联系的方式。
[04:35.26]For example,parents or a loved one or spouse would rescue from financial difficulties at the very time when you feel estranged or disconnected emotionally.
[04:40.66]例如，在你孤立无助的时候，你的父母、爱人或配偶会帮你从经济因境中解脱出来。
[04:46.06]KM:How difficult is it to change these patterns?
[04:48.31]要改变行为方式有多难呢？
[04:50.56]DK:Patterns can have a beginning,middle and end within a matter of minutes or hours,such as compulsive shopping or spending.
[04:54.14]有些行为方式可以在几分钟或者几个小时内经历从开始到结束的全过程，比如强迫性购物或消费。
[04:57.72]But there are also patterns,such as certain difficulties in intimacy in a relationship,that may take 10 or 20 years to unfold,
[05:01.57]而有些行为方式，比如与人建立一种亲密的关系，却要经过一二十年才能表现出来。
[05:05.42]and recovery from these patterns can be tougher than to look at the rapidly recurring patterns,
[05:07.94]要摆脱这样的行为方式，就比摆脱那些快速循环的行为方式困难多了，
[05:10.46]because by the time one has gone through it once or twice,they're well beyond middle age.
[05:13.36]因为当一个人经历这种行为一两次之后，往往都到中年了。
[05:16.26]But the greater the understanding of the motivations that go into it,
[05:18.15]一个人越是理解了这其中的动机，
[05:20.04]the greater possibility one has to really recognize that they themselves are creating the patterns as part of their stories,
[05:23.64]就越能真正认识到，他们已经形成了这样的行为方式并将其当作他们生活的一部分，
[05:27.24]and that with understanding,one may be able to create a very different story.
[05:29.62]而一旦理解了这些，就可以重新开始一种截然不同的生活体验。
[05:31.99]KM:You've said that the more the story of the symbol_in this case,money_comes to have a central position in one's life,
[05:36.28]你说标志物（这里指金钱）的地位越是重要，
[05:40.56]the more it has the potential to crowd out other very real and necessary things.
[05:43.60]这一标志物就越会将其他真实而重要的东西从生活中挤出去。
[05:46.64]For some people this takes the form of underearning.
[05:48.79]对有些人来说，这表现为收入低下。
[05:50.93]How would you define under-earning?
[05:52.33]你如何定义收入低下呢？
[05:53.74]DK:I see under_earning not simply as the inability to acquire money or to work to one's full potential,
[05:56.81]我认为收入低下不是简单的无力获取金钱，或无法发挥个人潜能赚钱，
[05:59.89]or,in the case of various kinds of independent professionals,the inability to set or collect fees.
[06:02.97]或是对于那些自由职业者而言收不到帐，
[06:06.05]It is those things,but it is also an internal issue.
[06:08.37]它表现为这些现象，但它同时也是一个人内在的问题。
[06:10.69]In one's own sense of self,ambition is one pole and ideal is another.
[06:14.15]在一个人的自我意识中，抱负是一回事，理想是另一回事。
[06:17.60]If..if we have formed an internal ideal that is attainable,
[06:19.46]如果我们心中有了一个可以达到的理想，
[06:21.31]we will most likely be fairly successful at working and earning at an appropriate level.
[06:24.50]我们的工作就会相当成功，收入也能达到相应的水平。
[06:27.68]KM:What you're really talking about is self_esteem,isn't it?
[06:30.20]你所说的其实是自尊，对吗？
[06:32.72]DK:Yes,and the only place that I know of that self_esteem comes from is from having an ideal that's attainable,
[06:35.80]对。我认为自尊只能源于拥有一个可以达到的理想，
[06:38.88]and achieving that ideal or those goals.
[06:40.25]并努力去实现它的过程。
[06:41.62]Now,what happens when the ideal is coupled with what someone else wants,or with an external goal?
[06:44.44]当你的理想和别人的一样时，或者与一个外在的目标一致时，又会如何呢？
[06:47.27]External affirmation makes one very vulnerable to things that would be one very vulnerable to things that would be emblems of worth_money,possessions,and other socially acceptable stand_ins for self-worth.
[06:52.78]外界的认可使一个人在金钱，财富和其他能被社会认可的自我价值面前变得容易受到伤害。
[06:58.28]But nothing is ever going to be enough.
[06:59.51]不过没有什么东西会有个够的。
[07:00.73]Nothing is going to be good enough unless you have a sense of "good enough"inside,
[07:02.93]没有什么东西会足够好，除非你的内心有一种“足够好”的感觉，
[07:05.12]which in turn means feeling a kind of affirmation of one's own worth internally.
[07:07.48]这样反过来你会从心底里感受到对自我价值的肯定。